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2/ I also believe your characterization of the Chinese model is focused far too much on their handling of their real estate sector and infra sector, which has undoubtedly been a failure and also highlights structural issues with their decentralized model of growth. Having said that, I find their patronage of their EV and solar industries quite fascinating, and the rapid advancements in the tech capabilities of Chinese companies under the broader umbrella of govt support schemes also points to strength of Chinese state capacity. In fact, in my opinion, ingenuity from the Chinese govt and ministries is a key reason for the success of China’s model, and the Chinese state, relative to its income levels, has been very impressive in terms of their state capacity and ability to execute on goals, particularly in hi-tech sectors. The best example of this can be seen in the spectacular growth and success of the telecom industry in China in the 80s and 90s, despite the fact that the country faced many of the same incumbent and regulatory headwinds that prevented other far more developed countries from being as successful in their initial experiences with the telecom industry.

To begin with, around the world, a major reason holding up explosive growth in telecom in the 70s and 80s was the initial monopolization of the sector by state-owned PTT companies. (PTT stands for postal, telegraph and telephone, and these companies were monopoly providers of these services in many countries, including China). When the new communications tech began improving, there was conflict as PTT companies wanted their monopoly to be extended to telecom. In countries where they were successful at this, adoption and tech upgradation were normally slower.

In China too, there was a monopoly PTT company, that initially extended its monopoly to the rising telecom sector. However, the company was slow in adopting new technology, and their products and services were subpar and inefficient. As a result, a coalition of ministries that were unhappy with their monopoly actually set up a rival company called China Unicom (still China’s 3rd largest wireless carrier), combining the expertise of the Ministry of Electronic Industry in manufacturing telecommunications equipment with the expertise and know-how of Ministry of Railways, Coal, Petroleum in operating private telecom networks, introducing competition and new tech standards to China's telecom system. This led to fall in prices, greater cellular density. They also began investing into CDMA networks between 90s and 2000s, coming up with a new tech called personal handy system, which allowed fixedline customers to roam within their local phone area, using their handsets as if they were mobile phones, thus ensuring a perfect bridge between fixedline and cellular ecosystems. Eventually, the old monopoly ministry was forced to separate itself from the dominant monopoly telecom company, and a new regulator ministry was set up as part of a broader restructuring drive. This regulator included representatives from both the ministries, ensuring that it would not discriminate against anyone.

Source: Cellular an Economic and Business History of the International Mobile-Phone Industry (Daniel D. Garcia-Swartz, Martin Campbell-Kelly). MIT Press. Chapter 5

Again, even if this was still catch-up growth to some extent, I still think credit must be given to the ingenuity shown by different actors within the Chinese state, especially considering the difficulties other developed and developing countries faced with respect to the telecom sector, even with private players involved. The Chinese state, in this case, managed to create an incredibly successful state-owned company that was competing with another state owned company, driving improvements across the sector, matching and exceeding efficiency levels shown by telecom sectors in countries with mostly private players. THIS IS UNEQUIVOCALLY BASED

Finally, the example of the telecom industry also highlights a major feature (in some cases like real estate, perhaps bug?) of the Chinese system, which is that even though many industries might be completely govt-owned or dominated by govt players, there is significant competition between different ministries and govt owned companies within the broader umbrella of the state itself, and the central authorities, at least in the case of telecom, let this competition play out. This means that even though many industries might be nationalized or state-dominated, they are able to recreate private sector like competitive dynamics within the state’s umbrella. Ofc the dynamics of perfect competition might be tough to fully recreate in this setup, but then observers argue that China’s cutthroat EV sector is a better example of perfect competition than any industry in the West?

Thus, despite the flaws in the Chinese state, this is a regime with incredibly high state capacity, and tons of internal govt competition, which unlike in most govt systems around the world, does not manifest through holding back policies and projects, but by competing to create new projects and industries. Ofc, this isn’t perfect, and has drawbacks, like local govt promoted real estate bubble, but the Chinese state, unlike most govt systems around the world, CAN ACTUALLY EXECUTE, AND AT SCALE. This is also why I believe it will remain a formidable player going forward, as they have abnormally high state capacity, not just for their income levels, but generally.

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Jai Rai's avatar

1/ Hey Dwarkesh, just putting my thoughts across in a few points through multiple posts (sorry lol). To begin with, roughly agree with your characterization of some of the flaws of the Chinese model. However, I don't really agree with your claim about China's total factor productivity, and your source, Prof Harry X Wu's views on China's TFP figures are controversial among observers and economists.

In fact, I have put these 3 references in this post, and I believe the one from readwriteinvest (Glenn Luk’s substack) is a particularly good summary of the problems with Wu's China calculations. Roughly, Wu assumes that Chinese offical growth rates are exaggerated, but does not adjust the proportion of capital and labor in his estimates, which are lower than govt estimates, which makes productivity estimates artificially low.

For example, if the official growth rate is 12%, under the govt estimate, labor's contribution was 2%, capital's contribution was 6%, and TFP was 4% as per the govt rate. Now Mr Wu claims that the actual growth rate is 9%. However, he does not really adjust the contributions of capital and labor in his estimate, which remains the same as the old estimate, which leads him to come to the conclusion that TFP is 1%. As seems evident, this approach has serious doctrinal issues, which were flagged by the Economist as well as FT, and deconstructed by Glenn Luk in his brilliant substack

https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2014/10/11/unproductive-production

https://www.ft.com/content/cb446e10-6057-11e5-97e9-7f0bf5e7177b

https://www.readwriteinvest.com/p/is-the-chinese-economy-as-efficient

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